things that don't belong on your resume #174

Another in our series of things that don't belong on your resume: information about where your kids attend college and what they're majoring in.

I don't even know what to say about this. But it seems clear that I might have to start traveling around the country in one of those vans outfitted with a megaphone and speakers so that I get more people's attention about job-searching do's and don'ts.

get your salary off your resume

Your salary does not belong on your resume.

Periodically I receive a resume that lists the salary for each position, alongside title and dates of employment.

Don't do this.

using confidential resume posting? read this caution

My friend Kat, who's doing some I.T. recruiting, offers up this PSA about a common mistake people make when posting confidential resumes on online job boards:

The omission of people's city, state and zip in a confidential resume means that they are not searchable once entered into a database. I understand that people like to post confidentially on job boards as there is a means for confidential return communication, but once that resume gets into some other ogranization's hand, it is useless without contact info. And more often than not (maybe 75% or more of the time), their resumes are being farmed out elsewhere from the job boards, and are therefore useless without personal information.

This is me and said friend
in our misspent youth,
probably doing something
ill-advised. Do you really
want job advice from
these girls?

I don't care if I have your last name, or even your phone number (although it is certainly desired). What I need is at least a first name, city, state, zip and current email address. If there is no zip code available, the candidate will not get searched in our database for future matches.

Perhaps the most frequent mistake I see made is people who put their address and phone on their resume but don't put their email address, not realizing that their resume document may get separated from their original submission email or their job board resume entry. Resumes always always get detached from emails or job boards for review, so you shouldn't omit an email address on the actual resume.

I've never recruited from job boards, so this is useful information to have. On a similar note, I've received resumes sent directly to me without containing any contact info, just a name, which is also strange. So today's message:  Contact info -- use it.

stop sending me two resumes!

There's an alarming new trend of people sending two resumes within one email message -- generally one longer version of the resume and one shorter version, but sometimes one version highlighting one set of skills and one version highlighting another. It's like they can't decide which version is better, so they'll just send them both.

This must stop.

when should internships come off your resume?

A reader writes:

When should internships come off your resume? I graduated a year ago and accepted a one-year, post-grad, entry-level position which ended recently and I am onto my second job since graduation. I was fortunate enough to intern with three really well known companies in my field during my undergrad years that are thought of as highly competitive. These internships clearly gave me in advantage in both post-grad positions.

Now that I have finally settled into my first real job ( I don't consider the one-year post-grad program a real job since it was not permanent and was without benefits), when should I take off the internships from my resume? I do not plan on job searching any time soon, but I feel like if I were to ever part from my current job, my resume would really skimpy without those internships. Also since I work in the creative field, I have really refined projects from those internships in my portfolio. 

Will these positions simply age themselves out and no longer become relevant say 3 or 4 years or should they come off now that I am no longer seeking junior level work?

The test is not whether you're seeking work at the same level as the internships were. If that were the case, no one would ever have anything on their resume except for their last job.

The idea is that your resume shows the breadth and progression of your experience. If your internship experience is relevant to the jobs you're applying for, or if they help paint a picture of your career progression, or if your resume would seem sparse without them, they stay.

They should come off only when you feel they no longer strengthen your candidacy or present a picture of who you are. That time is not now, as you only left the internship-period of your life a year ago. If I had to come up with a general rule to quantify it, I'd say that for most people that time will be somewhere between five and ten years after graduation.

To make this more intuitive, think like an employer: Would you rather hire a candidate who appears to have only had one or two jobs, or someone who spent their time in college getting work experience too? At 35, what you did in college probably isn't going to matter that much. But when college was only a few years ago, it's still relevant.

please stop with the tiny font!

I have spent much of today straining to read the tiny font on resumes and cover letters. I'm talking 9-point in some cases. Yes, yes, perhaps I'm just getting old and can no longer see very well, but 9-point is way too small. Haven't we agreed as a society that 11-point is a minimum?

It makes me think of how in school, some people would use larger fonts and wider margins in order to produce the full 10 (or whatever) pages that had been assigned.*  I think this is the opposite of that -- people are shrinking their fonts to a tiny size because they think their resume can't be longer than a page.

Unless you are recently out of your school, your resume can be two pages. Really. I don't want to read resumes with a monocle.

* I also have a rant about why page minimums in school are a bad idea, but I'll spare you that.

is having "company president" on my resume hurting me?

A reader writes:

I'm having trouble getting interviewed and I feel my resume is to blame, but I think my unique situation may also share some of that trouble.

My husband and I own a small construction company. I'm actually majority owner, and we employ between five to 15 employees depending on our job load. My actual duties include everything from payroll to tax preparation to AR and AP, HR responsibilities, advertising, customer service, and public relations (which is what I hold my degree in.)

I am not happy and have decided to pursue another career. However, any job I have applied for, I have not gotten an interview. I think employers see "president" on my resume and immediately throw it away because they assume I will ask for a higher salary than they are prepared to pay. Or they think maybe I am overqualified, or will be too high maintenance or a big know-it-all in the office.

How can I get potential employers to see that I am a team player with a passion for public relations? (I have extensive experience in my community with non-profit public relations campaigns, so I feel I am qualified for at least entry work in this field.)

This may be overly simplistic, but have you thought about changing your title? As the owner of the company, you can give yourself any title you want, and "president" may not be serving you well in your job search. Why not give yourself a title that reflects the PR work you do and rewrite your resume to focus on that?

You shouldn't be deceitful, so you should also include information about the rest of your role -- it's only fair that employers understand that you haven't been devoted 100% to PR -- but you can certainly highlight the PR stuff and keep the biggest focus on that.

Now, if the PR work you do for your company only accounts for 5% of your time, this isn't a good approach -- it's not accurate and it'll likely come out during the interview. But if it's truly a significant chunk of your time, this isn't a bad way to go. And combined with your volunteer PR work for nonprofits, you should be in pretty good shape.

Of course, all that said, you also want to ask yourself whether your trouble getting interviews might not be about this issue at all. It could be that your resume isn't presenting you well, or that your cover letter is terrible, or simply that in this market people generally need to apply for a lot of jobs in order to get interviews. But if you've ruled those factors out, I'd play with your title, since you control it.

how to list temp work on a resume

A reader writes:

Do you have any thoughts on how to list temporary work on a resume? I've been reading Ask a Manager for about a year now, and I can't even tell you how much it's helped me in my transition from college student/intern to professional. I always really appreciate that your thoughtful, honest advice, so I'd really like to know what you think.

I graduated in spring 2009, but have yet to find a permanent job in my chosen field. I'm still looking, but I've also been working through a temp agency to fill the gap. My question is: How do you, as a manager, like to see temporary work listed on a resume? Is there any way I can use it to my advantage?

I'm concerned that 1) it reflects badly on me that I have yet to find permanent employment 2) I don't want to crowd out my more relevant internship experience by listing a number of less relevant, although more recent, temp jobs.

I know you're really busy, so I understand if you don't have time to reply. However, I just want to say again how much I appreciate your blog. It should be required reading for every young professional!

It should, shouldn't it?

There are a couple of different ways to list temp work on a resume, which I'll get to in a minute. But first let me address your concern that it reflects poorly on you that you haven't found permanent employment yet: It does not. The job market has been horrible for a while now. Recent grads, in particular, are having a tremendously tough time. For most of them, it's not their fault. As I've written before, for a lot of people right now, it's not about them; it's about math. Any hiring manager who doesn't recognize that is an ass.

Okay, so back to how to list temp work. It depends on how long-term your assignments are. If you've had some relatively long-term assignments (more than a couple of weeks in one place), I'd list it like this:

Acme Architecture (via Temps Inc.) -- August - October 2009

If your assignments have been more short-term, then I'd list the temp company itself as the employer, followed by a list of bullet points of the types of responsibilities you've had at various companies through them. Like with anything on your resume, make sure you really sell what you've been doing during that time.

Good luck!

should you include retail work on your professional resume?

A reader writes:

I just moved to a different state. My husband got a job, so I had to leave mine and move with him. I have had a heck of a time finding work here. I took a retail position to help with bills until I could find an accounting position. It's been three months, and I have yet to find an accounting job. I'm afraid that my three month lapse on my resume looks bad. Should I list my retail job, so that employers can at least see that I have been working? Should I keep it off my resume? I've been given advice both ways: put it on--it shows you're working and humble to take a position lower than your career tier, leave it off--it has nothing to do with your accounting profession and it shows you're desperate for a job. What do you suggest?

This is one of those questions where reasonable people will reach different conclusions. I don't know that there's one right answer, because it depends so much on the person reviewing your resume.

I'm one who thinks that you should leave it off, because it isn't part of bolstering your value in the industry you're seeking work in. A resume isn't meant to be an exhaustive accounting of every job you've ever held; it's a marketing document. If the interviewer asks what you did for that three-month period, by all means, explain -- but I don't think it adds value to your resume.

Also, three months out of work is nothing these days. Any sensible hiring manager won't blink an eye.

Anyone want to disagree?

can I list work for my father on my resume?

A reader writes:

I graduated university back in August last year. Since then, I've mainly been filling my time job-hunting and working for my dad since I moved back home.

My question is, would a recruiter look unfavorably on this if I were to list this on my resume? Even moreso since his business's address and phone number is the same as our home address, and I am not getting paid for this. I am currently back in community college taking classes during the day, but if I don't list the work I've done with my dad, I have a pretty big gap of nothing from August to December, and I can't imagine that would be good at all.

I think you should list it. You're doing actual work for him, right? It's legitimate. If you want to be completely safe, you could add "family business" in parentheses so that no one is taken by surprise later. But you really shouldn't feel weird about this.

That said, you don't want to use your dad as a reference. But listing the work is fine.

can "volunteering" become "consulting" on a resume?

A reader writes:

I'm eager to get your opinion on a suggestion a recruiter gave me recently. She had me list my marketing volunteer work as "marketing and PR consulting" on my resume to give me more recent work experience. (I was laid off just over a year ago.) I actually have helped a couple of local charities with their social media strategy, marketing, and PR quite a bit over the last year. I did update my resume as she requested, and I got the interview. I gave the interviewer more detail, including the name of the organizations and the fact that my work was unpaid. The interviewer seemed to like it, though in the end I did not get the position. I'm trying to decide if I should make the change permanent and add it to LinkedIn as well. It's tricky, because I don't want to be misleading, but I think this could give my efforts a boost at this point.

My answer to this question is now up over at U.S. News & World Report. Read it right here.

should I include an audio clip with my resume?

A reader writes:

I had an idea which I wanted to bounce off of you. I was thinking one way I could make myself different from the rest of the pack is a quick audio overview of myself; sort of an elevator speech directed at the organization I am interested in. I am looking to apply for consulting positions in Information Technology. I believe an audio file will enhance my resume and cover letter, be very different from the rest of the pack, and show my charisma and ability to speak intelligently.

What do you think? Thanks!

I think no, for the same reason that video resumes are a bad idea: Most hiring managers are spending mere seconds on your resume before making a decision about whether to put you in their yes, no, or maybe pile. They don't want to watch or listen to a whole pitch; they want to scan the parts of your resume that they want to scan, and they want to do it quickly. Video or audio overviews remove that ability.

I also don't think an audio file would necessarily indicate charisma or ability to speak intelligently, because for all I know, you're reading a script that someone else wrote and which took you 20 tries to get to sound like that. I'm much more interested in how you speak extemporaneously, if we get to an interview.

Now, there might be some industries where this might be a better idea ... but I suspect that most hiring managers, like me, would just delete it.

What do others think?

should I include a job I was fired from on my resume?

A reader writes:

I was just terminated from my job. I was five days before being off probation and two days away from my first big job event (I plan and run conferences). Without any prior notice, meeting, or confrontation, I was ushered into my department head’s office and told that in order to make a strong team, she needed to let me go immediately. I asked if there was any particular cause or option for a re-negotiation, but was told that since I was still in my probationary period, they were within their rights to terminate me at any time. At that point security came in and ushered me to my office to collect my things and leave the building. It was all quite dramatic.

Of course, I understand the rules. I am, however, at a bit of a loss on how to move on from here. I had been out of work for five months prior to this position and worked there for 2.5 months before being terminated. In those weeks I did not rack up any accomplishments I would typically list in a resume -- summer is a downtime for conferences. And, until I receive a copy of my file with my termination letter from HR, I do not want anyone contacting them. I also cannot speak to what happened or how I plan to improve whatever it was they found lacking in my performance until I have a better explanation, if I ever am to get one.

So, my question is, do I leave this job off my resume, which shows that I have been out of work since March? Or, do I include it? I don’t know if I ever will find out the "real reason" I was fired, and I know that a short stint in this job looks suspicious. I would be suspicious of me. Or, does being out of work, even in such an economy, look worse?

Leave the job off your resume.

It was only two and a half months, which means that it's not useful in showing any real accomplishments or advancement. And in addition to not doing you any good because of that, it will actually do harm -- by raising questions about what you were fired or left so soon. Those are questions that can be addressed if it's absolutely unavoidable, but it's better to never raise the questions at all if you can.

In general, I'd suggest leaving any short stints like this off a resume, unless there's a way to paint them in a flattering light (and to do so honestly). For instance, short-term consulting is fine. But leaving after two months because of fickleness or dismissal aren't things that strengthen your candidacy.

Your resume is not required to be a comprehensive accounting of how you spent each month of your professional life. It's understood that the whole point is to present yourself in the strongest light.

Now, of course you may get questions about how you spent a period of time that your resume left unaccounted for. In your case, you had already been unemployed for five months before. You didn't say why, but let's assume for the sake of illustration that you were laid off. When asked about the period of time since your last job, you would simply say that you, like so many others right now, were laid off and have spent the time since job-searching and doing ____. (Fill in the blank with freelancing, caring for family members, taking a class, or whatever happens to be true in your case.)

Regarding your question about whether being out of work looks bad: Show me a hiring manager who hasn't been spending her days talking to strong candidates who are out of work because of the economy, and I will show you a hiring manager who just started her job this morning. Great candidates who are unemployed have become normal right now, unfortunately. Any hiring manager who would discard a candidate for being out of work right now isn't living in reality (and is a jerk you don't want to work for anyway).

So leave that job off your resume, and good luck.

help! I'm getting confusing and conflicting resume advice!

A reader writes:

Last week, I did a complete overhaul of my resume, specifically to cut it down from 2 pages to 1, because I keep hearing (from friends who work in HR, as well as in articles on the subject) that now more than ever, employers want a really clear, concise snapshot of each candidate with as little "fluff" as possible.

I decided to use a functional/chronological combo in order to highlight very specific areas of expertise, but to still lend a sense of when and where these skills were obtained.

I sent it to my father in law who has worked in HR for nearly 40 years for some feedback, and he in turn sent it to nine of his friends and colleagues (also in HR). The feedback has started coming in and it's SO MADDENING! Not because I don't appreciate their constructive criticism, but because so much of it is conflicting.

One person will say "great idea to cut it down to one page" while another says "don't be afraid to use two."

One will say "I love that she started off with a clear, concise profile highlighting her experience," while another says "skip it."

One will say "I love functional resumes because they really give me a sense of what the candidate's greatest strengths and best developed skills are" while another says "I hate functional resumes because I feel like the candidate is trying to camouflage gaps in their employment." (Which, by the way, is not at all the case here, since my resume does include a chronological component outlining my employment history.)

One will say "use a sans serif font," while another says "garamond is a great font choice."

It's been maddening to read this feedback, because it often feels very "damned if you do, damned if you don't," and also highlights how much we as applicants are at the mercy of the readers' whims. Clearly, much of writing a "great" resume - one that will capture the attention of the very first person looking at it and pique their interest in meeting with you - is subjective.

What advice do you have for navigating the various personal preferences and pet peeves of HR professionals and hiring managers? There doesn't seem to be any hard and fast "rules" when it comes writing a great resume that is going to get you a call back, but what - if anything - would you characterize as best practices or safest bets?

You are living out exactly what I tell friends about their resumes: You can give your resume to 10 different people who know what they're doing, and you'll get 10 different sets of advice.

There are no hard and fast universal rules aside from the obvious (no typos, no illegible fonts, no 10-page monstrosities, no inappropriate sharing).

What there are instead are preferences. Often deeply held preferences.

But the reality is that when it comes to actually reviewing a candidate's resume, a reasonable hiring manager isn't going to reject a candidate because she used a san serif font even though the manager personally thinks a serif font is the smarter bet and recommends serif fonts to her job-hunting friends. For instance, I hate resume objectives -- hate them, preach against them, want to rid the world of them -- but am I going to reject a candidate simply for having one? Of course not. Because everyone knows that there's a huge variety of accepted practices in how you do your resume.

So what does this mean for you, as a candidate seeking advice on her resume? First, don't take any of it as absolute dogma (unless there's something that the 10 people are all in agreement on). Second, ask your resume reviewers why they're giving a particular piece of advice. It's much more helpful to hear their thought process than to just get random, conflicting rules thrown at you. From there, make your own decisions. None of it is gospel, and any hiring manager who rejects a resume for not conforming precisely to her preferences is someone you don't want to work for anyway. (It's also not a mindset you're likely to see much, or no one would ever get hired.)

That said, there are trends, conventions that are starting to gain majority support (although fewer of them than you'd think). For instance, in my experience, more hiring managers than not do think functional resumes are frustrating and possibly hiding something. And two pages has grown a lot more acceptable than it used to be, to the point that it's really not an issue unless you're dealing with someone very old-school.

But again, even these trends aren't hard and fast rules.

The best you can do is get a feel for the types of things people care about and why and make choices that feel reasonable to you. Good luck!

does the font on your resume matter? what if it's Comic Sans?

A reader writes:

A friend of mine has asked me to critique his paper resume and cover letter.

Both documents used Comic Sans font. I suggested he use something more businesslike, such as Arial, but he's sold on Comic Sans.

To me, Comic Sans sends the implicit message "I think this is a joke" or, at least, looks too casual. Am I getting too picky?

Ugh, Comic Sans. For those who don't know it, Comic Sans looks like this.

It's not a professional font. It was designed to imitate comic book lettering. It's informal. It's despised by graphic designers. There's a movement to ban it.

Am I going to disregard an otherwise great candidate over it? No. Is it going to mildly annoy me? Yes. Do you want to be mildly annoying hiring managers by using an unprofessional font on your resume and making them wonder why you don't know it's not professional? No. Does it potentially contribute to an overall impression of you as unprofessional? Yes.

The test of a good resume font is one that doesn't make the reader think about what font you used. Comic Sans fails that test.

more resume shenanigans - leaving off dates of employment

I'm seeing what might be a trend of people using a chronological resume format but leaving off any indication of how long they held each position.

This is really not a good idea. It looks like you're trying to hide a series of short stays and in a pretty inept way, because it jumps out like it would if you left off any other important piece of information (like an email address, which I've also seen some people do).

As of today, I'm going to start emailing candidates who do this and asking them to submit a version of their resume that does include the time periods they held each position, since otherwise I'd need to spend time on the phone interview having them walk me through it for each job, which is tedious and not how I want to spend interview time. These shenanigans will not stand!

cautionary tale: leaving Track Changes on your resume

Today I got a resume where the candidate had left Word's Track Changes feature on. As a result, I could see all the edits someone had made on his resume, and I know that they weren't his own, because they also included suggestions like "you have to beef up the first paragraph."

I don't have a problem with him having editing help; I have a problem with the carelessness. It made him an instant rejection, even though he was otherwise was qualified.

There are so many silly ways of shooting yourself in the foot that are easily avoided if you pay attention.

creative resumes, and how long employers take to respond

A reader writes:

I would like to inquire on how long an employer will usually take to reply to an expression of interest in a job.

I am a 16 year old student that has emailed several different employers with my resume and cover letter and have only received an instant reply from one. A few were advertised positions and the rest were general inquiries on my part. I admit it has been less than a week since I have sent them but considering I received a reply from one within a few hours, I am rather anxious and frustrated to hear from the rest too (I have refreshed my email around 20 times today, I kid you not).

I understand that the job market at the moment isn't particularly keen on employing less experienced teenagers but surely the lower pay rate attracts them?

I'm also unsure whether my resume is a turn-off because I made a much more creative one that still clearly delivers the facts and figures, but is presented with color and more flair. Also the jobs I am applying for are cafes, juice bars and fashion stores. And no doubt my lack of real retail experience (I only have volunteer work) disadvantages me. Any words of wisdom you may offer?

Okay, clearly I have to drop my preconceived notions about teenagers not reading career blogs, because you are the second 16-year-old in three weeks to write to me. It still surprises and impresses me though.

It can take some employers quite a long time to respond to applications. A week is definitely nothing -- some take a month or even more. I tend to be pretty fast and often respond within a few days, but even I wouldn't feel ashamed of myself if it took me, say, two weeks. And lots of employers really do take a lot longer. In some cases, this may be because they're disorganized, but generally it's just because they have lots of other stuff going on that they have to deal with first. So stop obsessively checking your email.

As for creative resumes, in certain fields if they're well-done, they can be a plus. I'm sure there are some HR people or hiring managers out there who consider them a deal-breaker because they want you to do things the traditional way, but in general I suspect most people feel like I do, which is this: The most important thing about your resume design is that I need to be able to read it clearly, without straining, and I want to be able to quickly scan it and get the highlights. Creativity, while a nice trait, doesn't trump those requirements, so make sure whatever format you use works in those ways.

As for more general teenager job-searching advice, I'm going to refer you to the comments section of the last post from a teenager -- people offered up really helpful advice, so read through that and see if it's useful.

don't list basic computer skills on a resume

A reader writes:

Is it really necessary to list computer skills on a resume? Shouldn't basic skills be assumed at this point in history? I'm great with Microsoft Office and I know Macs and a couple of other miscellaneous programs, but I don't know Photoshop or Dreamweaver or HTML or anything specialized. And my most recent position is "Administrative Assistant," so isn't computer use implied in the title? Can I save that space for something a little more, I don't know, stand-outish?

Yes, yes, yes! I totally agree. There is no need to list basic computer skills, like Word, Excel, or Outlook, on a resume.

If you have specialized computer skills -- in a program that isn't being used by everyone in any office in the U.S. -- list those. Or if you're known for something really amazing in these basic programs, you could put that -- like "became office Excel guru and trouble-shot all complicated Excel functions." But otherwise, skip any mention of computer skills; there's no reason to use up valuable resume real estate with it.

Frankly, in my dream world, candidates would instead list the expected skills that they DON'T have -- like: "warning: I've never used a word processing program, and I don't know how to attach a file to an email, nor am I likely to pick it up easily."

things I don't want to know about you

I'm cool with you blogging about chronic masturbation if that's what you want to do, but then probably you shouldn't include a link to your blog in your job application materials. I wasn't really prepared for that.